Transcript
WEBVTT
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All right, hello everyone.
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How's it going?
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Welcome back to the show.
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This is James Paris edition, and this will be episode 170 with Dr Amy Alexander, a general interview with her, and now we're going to focus more on a specialized topic regarding colorism generational trauma and a little bit of the research I've done and maybe some media and communications jargon that I'm somewhat familiar with relating to this topic too.
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For a unique twist, and after we're done discussing that, we'll get into the general interview and just discuss what's been said and again, I think it will be pretty good.
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Let's get started.
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So, to start this off, we're going to be looking at colorism.
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So colorism is essentially a form of discrimination on skin color.
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It has a deep historical influence.
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It has an influence on societal power dynamics and it can be traced back to many historical contexts and its impact continues today in society.
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The origins of colorism it first started with colonial legacy.
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It's linked to the colonial era and it's basically the mistreatment and categorization of individuals on skin color.
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Generally, what you'll find again this is in a lot of communities, lighter skin individuals will receive more privilege than darker skin individuals.
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Regarding cultural influences, it also is associated with historical perceptions of beauty specific to different communities, lighter-skinned people might be considered more beautiful than darker people.
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Now, the modern manifestations it's shown profusely in media, the workplaces and anywhere that's prevalent in society.
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Now, ways we could deal with colorism, it can be done through awareness, educating individuals about colorism, empowerment empowering individuals by showing them that they can embrace their unique forms of beauty.
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And then, you know, advocating for policies to promote equality and also better or more fair treatment.
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So the media's role in perpetuating colorism first of all, it's representation Reinforcing biases.
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You see this all the time.
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First of all, it's representation Reinforcing biases.
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You see this all the time.
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A lot of times, usually in media or in positions of power, you might see lighter complexion, people, stereotypes.
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There are certain caricatures depending on people with darker skin tones, especially during the Jim Crow era, with blackface, you'll notice.
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There's that deep stereotype towards darker people, which in itself is wrong, but this is just how it was portrayed at the time.
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Inclusivity so this is another one, and essentially, by creating a more inclusive environment, bringing together different colors of people, portraying that level of equality, that's another portion of it too.
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Additionally, people who might be on that spectrum of colorism, where they deal with those forms of oppression.
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It can affect self-esteem.
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It can also lead to psychological strain as well, and it could also lead to community dynamics.
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I think the psychological strain will be an interesting topic throughout this interview Because I think that's a topic that we will be hitting a lot of Due to the psychology experience.
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Additionally, we're going to be looking at the historical context.
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So basically, colorism is rooted in a lot of things with significance, so it can be shaped in many different narratives.
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It's embedded in many societal structures.
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I at least know, from my experience in the Caribbean at least, my grandfather.
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He was very, very dark-skinned and he dealt with a lot of oppression.
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It was only until he actually got his PhD in biomedical engineering and became a huge professor at the University of the West Indies that he actually overcame that.
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But again, it's these types of things that play a role.
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This is not something that's old and the reclamation of identity is a testament to the individuals in the face of systematic discrimination.
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So that's all kind of a part of what I mentioned.
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So gender it intersects with gender bias and it affects desirability and worth based on the general skin tone and empowerment efforts.
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You know, I think colorism can also play a role in maybe equalizing the genders a bit more, because the same way colorism can influence groups of people, it can also influence the way genders are perceived as well, especially amongst women, you could imagine.
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So education and advocacy.
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So implementing educational programs to address colorism is also important, teaching people about its scholarly research, understanding the different aspects of it, and other efforts too.
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Now, this is when we kind of go into a different area here.
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So what is the spiral of silence?
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The spiral of silence is basically a media communication theory that states that if you are within a certain minority, you're going to have a smaller chance of being able to speak out about a specific issue.
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So, for example, if you live in a very conservative area and you might have a certain belief system, like you're a pro-choice, because you're the minority in that area, you're going to have a stronger likelihood of being silent about the particular issue.
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This same problem propagates as well with colorism too.
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Because of societal pressures, because of fears of not conforming to society, people don't want to speak up about color colonies, they don't want to talk about it at length, and it leads to problems such as this, because the number one reason why we can't go back to actually addressing the issue is because a lot of people know it's true, but they're afraid to speak out about it because they believe in the sense that they're the minority.
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So, yeah, they believe in the sense that they're the minority.
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So yeah, that was sort of the general gist of what I've personally studied.
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But, again, dr Alexander is a bit more of an expert on this, so we'll have her opinion on this and, yeah, we'll continue discussing.
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Okay, so how are you today?
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I'm doing well.
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How about you?
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Doing great.
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So what's your opinion so far on all this?
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I agree with what you've put before us.
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I think this goes way back before even America existed, to you know, to Europe, and it has infected, like every culture, almost.
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When I think about Indians and I mean Indians like from Pakistan and India, those Pakistanis in different areas I remember speaking to people about skin tone from their cultures.
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Again, lighter is is so much more of value to them because it's closer to what Europeans look like and has been held as the standard of beauty and what we all at some point aspire to or thought we should aspire to, I mean all of us.
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Everywhere colonialism has happened, there's color colorism.
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Look at South Africa, look at even, like you were talking about, the West Indies and those areas.
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I think in the last few years we're coming to realize those and when I say few, like maybe 20, 15, 20 years, we're coming to realize that that's not the case and that's not true.
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I remember as a little girl I was trying to, I was trying to, but I remember looking at, like Ebony and Essence Magazine, this little girl in the 80s and just seeing light-skinned women and my mother's the one who actually pointed it out like light-skinned women were on the cover a lot more often than dark-skinned women or even brown-skinned women, you know, and they had a lot of European features.
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So this is what we also were used to looking at and seeing and valuing right without even knowing it.
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And you think about the doll test.
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Do you remember that?
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The two doctors, the social workers who did the test, the doll test with the white doll and the black doll asking black children what was prettier, was this one smarter or was this one dirty or bad or good?
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So these things have been reinforced again for generations and that's the trauma we see like black today.
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If you want me to go into this, today we see these like the Crown Act and different things like that for hair that people have fought for, to wear their own natural hair in spaces of professionalism and stuff like that.
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But for the most part we see Black women walking around with straightened hair right, artificially straightened hair, as in getting a relaxer, getting it straight and blown out out stuff like that.
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And that's part of the trauma of being not considered attractive in this in this nation, and then I know it goes on in other places outside of America.
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But I can only speak to hear what I've experienced, and so I Think it's again generations of being taught one thing and now we're beginning to try to unlearn right and relearn the right way, hopefully, about color and and the caste system and all the things that we've kind of just taken for granted up until recently.
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I also want to say May is Mental Health Awareness Month.
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I have my little pin on right here, so maybe people could take a little bit of time to learn something about mental health that they might not do otherwise, so this is perfect timing for us.
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Excellent.
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You know what's your opinion on colorism and sort of the way it played a role in your life specifically.
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I think that people I remember being young girls would say well, you think you're cute?
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I'd be like, how do they know what I think?
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And I didn't think I was cute.
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I still don't think I'm cute, but I remember telling my mother and her saying well, amy, that's their insecurities and that's their.
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And I'm in elementary school I don't fully comprehend these things, but as I've grown older and had more experiences and learned more, of course I see the pain, you know, of a lot of dark-skinned Black women.
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The things that they've been subjected to that I have not experienced.
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I look at, I think about, like Lil' Kim the rapper, kimberly Denise Jones, and how, the progression of her transformation from what she naturally was a beautiful Black woman to what she is now and I wish I had pictures of what she looked like when she was younger I've seen it.
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I've seen it, I know what you're talking about Any surgery.
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Yeah, and I think, again, that's part of the trauma of not feeling accepted, of not being okay in a society that values a more narrow nose, thinner lips, straight hair, a thin body and that's just naturally not really most Black women's aesthetics.
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We don't look like that and we've been taught that that's not pretty.
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So, yeah, yeah, it's a deep, insidious thing, you know, and I believe that a lot of Black women struggle with their hair.
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You know comes from that.
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And it's odd, james, because back in antebellum times Black women were forced to, like, put their hair up because it was so beautiful and the white women were kind of intimidated by it and jealous of it and they didn't want their men being attracted to it.
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So that's where those like bonnets and you know things, things kind of originated is to hide our hair.
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Um, and I think we're still in a lot of ways doing that, not physically, but right, theoretically and psychologically.
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We're getting and I've, you know, had relaxers, I've had things done to my hair, have it blown out.
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You know, sometimes I like a straight and I don't think that's always a.
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You know you're traumatized, so you're just wearing your hair like that sometimes it is aesthetic, but I would like black women, especially little black girls, to know you can wear your hair out natural and and and you're, and you're beautiful.
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You know you're, you're beautiful.
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I see, know you're beautiful.
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I see a lot more of that and a lot more Afros these days and I'm glad it's unfortunate that we have to make laws, though, so black women can wear their hairstyles.
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You know, and even when we think about it, it affects every part.
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Remember the young black swimmer.
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She couldn't use the swimming cap that she needed for her hair to say, you know, because it wasn't regulation or whatever.
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So it affects so many areas of life, um, but I'm glad that it's changing.
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I'm just sad that it's taken so long and that it takes laws to actually, you know, make this happen.
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It's insane.
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Excellent.
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And, you know, do you think colorism also plays a role when it comes to a discussion we had before in our last talk about generational trauma?
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I absolutely do, because think about enslavement.
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Think about and this is the part where I actually feel sad for some of the white women who had to endure this but their husbands were, you know, making babies with enslaved women, right?
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So you could tell the lighter skinned kids, you know, and they look like your husband coming into your house because they had the privilege right.
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So you could tell the lighter skin kids, you know, and they look like your husband coming into your house because they had the privilege right of being a little bit more protected than those who were not produced by the masters or overseers or, you know, owners or plantation owners.
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So it started way back.
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I mean I'm sure it was before that, but here in this country it's been going on for so long.
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I mean, they separated us by our skin tone and sometimes it was because our fathers were, you know, the owners of the plantation, but other times it was just because they saw value in being lighter.
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So I think, yes, it has affected all Black people, to be honest, in this country, and I think it certainly has affected me, because as a child and even as an adult, people are always asking me what are you?
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I'm sure a lot of people get that question, but I don't know why it's so important and significant for the hierarchy you know that's been created in this nation and really race is just a kind of and biology are theoretical right, they're human conceptions, they're man-made things, because there's really no biological difference in people of different races.
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Biology I'm talking about.
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There is a biological difference.
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There are physical manifestations that are different, like skin tone and hair color, hair texture, things like that, but it affects the whole system.
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I mean, think about the history of this country.
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It's so based in a hierarchy of race that we don't even realize sometimes how deep it is.
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It's so deep that and I think you might have read some of my dissertation, but I talk about racial identity development and there are theories of that, like how Black folks and they have ones for biracial people and white they have the racial identity development models and theories.
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But there are stages that a lot of Black folks go through in order to get to who they are and one is like when you realize that you're actually not valued by this country, even though you're a citizen.
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You know, like James Baldwin said, you're in America but you're not American.
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You don't get to experience the benefits of being an American.
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And there's one that I use in my dissertation particularly.
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It's called Nigressence and Dr William Cross came up with that in the 1970s and there are like five steps to Nigressence.
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And the first one is a pre-encounter where you're kind of, you get introduced to the white dominant culture and you think you're a part of it, right, and so you try to fit in and you're largely unaware of what is race and racial things cause.
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You're a child and the one that changes things is encounter.
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And I can pinpoint for me, um, there have been, I guess, many moments.
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But and even for my daughters you know, um, you remember that moment when you knew you were black, when someone said something to you or where you weren't included in a situation or people didn't value your insight or your input, like I mean.
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You know, whenever that happened, right, and you realize I'm not like these people, I'm not ever going to fit in fully with white folks, and that's kind of a hard thing to experience and to go through.
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But it's the reality that you can never be truly American because America does not accept you as you are.
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So, yeah, there's like immersion and immersion, internalization and internalization and commitment.
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So those are the other steps of my aggressions.
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But people can look that up and figure it, you know.
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But the point being that many people have looked into and studied this process, right Of us becoming black, of realizing in that moment that I am never going to be like these other folks, these other Americans, because I'm Black and I'm different and I'm going to be treated differently.
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And oftentimes, you know, I want to say, when I was taking a sociology class in undergrad school, we were talking about skin tone and different things like that, and the professor said well, sometimes companies will hire the darker skinned people because they stand out more and it just shows that, hey, we're diverse and we're welcoming everyone.
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So it can work many ways.
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And I think again, the dominant culture knows how to kind of manipulate and maneuver those things in order to kind of make us feel a little bit comfortable in some spaces and to make themselves look like they're helpful when they're not.
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That does make sense, makes sense.
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Speaking of companies, what's your opinion on companies maybe prioritizing or hiring specific minorities more often because of maybe colorism or other factors such as this?
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Do you think it's a good thing?
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Is it a bad thing?
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Or maybe colleges maybe furring minorities in general?
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What's your thoughts on that?
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Are you speaking about, like how the word is escaping you right now?
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But preference in terms of race, yeah that's what I'm asking.
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I can't think of the word, but those things.
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I think this country owes us that.
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If you want to know the truth, I think this country owes us that.
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If you want to know the truth, I think this country I just saw an article how, like, the government took like $6 billion from Black folks through taxes and different methods of kind of taking wealth from our community.
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You know, when you talk about Black Wall Street and Greenwood and those things, they when white society and this doesn't include every white person.
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I'm talking about just the system, not individual people.
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When they saw us doing well, they destroyed what we built.
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So, yeah, I think I think they owe us more than 10% of you know we're talking about affirmative action.
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That's the word I couldn't think of.
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When we're talking about those things, I mean I believe in reparations that we built.
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Our ancestors built this country literally, and in many ways I'm talkingks some people.
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And then those people irk my soul.
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They think that Black folks and Brown folks are getting hired because of their skin tone or because of their ethnic, you know, background or heritage, when really we're being hired because in the past, even though we were qualified and perhaps even more qualified than the person, the white person, who got the job.
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We didn't get the job.
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So just because you see somebody in affirmative action or or in a racial minority preference situation, that doesn't mean we're unqualified.
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It means that you know America or some corporations or some entities are actually trying to make up for the disparities that have happened in the past.
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People forget about that, you know.
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People forget about and I don't want to even get too much into this but the history of Israel and how, you know, the Jews and I am Jewish got that piece of land that they're now fighting over.
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That they've been fighting over, you know, with Palestine, and it's just people forget that things were given and taken unfairly through violence, right and oppression, and so I think you know we should get more than 10% if they set aside, and the Supreme Court is doing all they can today to make sure that it seems like that Black folks don't get the same level of education.
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You know they're making it difficult for folks to vote, which is extremely important in my mind.
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So I think colorism is yes, there are people who make it.
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There are people who get jobs and get positions and, I'm sure, a lot of people doing the hiring and doing the acceptance of people into certain programs or educational spaces, are not necessarily conscious of the people that they're choosing.
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But it is easier to choose somebody who looks like you or somebody who you believe has more in common with you than other people that you've interviewed or talked to or something like that.
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We all like pretty people and if we associate being light with pretty, that's a privilege right there and I recognize my proximity to whiteness and that I I'm sure I have privilege and I've had privilege in spaces that you know before I was pretty well educated I didn't realize.
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But yeah, I mean I'm sure it plays, if not a you know kind of obvious role, at least an indirect space, you know kind of an unconscious thing about skin tone.
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So why is it that?
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What is your opinion on, maybe, the way colorism can affect?
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Oh, I forgot my question.
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I was yeah, yeah.
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I went on too long I completely.
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Okay, go ahead.
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I was going to go on to a kind of other topic or something.
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Yeah, but I think you know what I was thinking of was generally how colorism can actually be fixed.
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How do you think colorism can actually be dealt with in a positive way to kind of overcome this issue, and do you think it could be done in an ethical way or a way that's actually possible?
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I mean, I think honestly, like I think all it has to start in the Black community.
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It has to start with us, because it is us and, as I say, with trauma you might be traumatized.
00:26:08.546 --> 00:26:13.722
It's not your fault but now it's your responsibility to address it so that you can heal from it and move on.
00:26:13.722 --> 00:26:16.281
I think Black folks can fix this.
00:26:16.281 --> 00:26:29.287
I think we need to be educated and get in our mind that there's no really such thing as a light-skinned thing and how we associate you know, I don't know certain things with that and how we associate certain things with being dark-skinned.
00:26:29.287 --> 00:26:36.056
You know these are all residuals of enslavement and all the things that came after that in our system.
00:26:36.056 --> 00:26:40.007
You know Jim Crow convict leasing institutional discrimination.
00:26:40.007 --> 00:26:42.182
I mean, there's thing after thing after thing.
00:26:42.182 --> 00:27:01.957
So I think when we change our language somebody else I was talking to somebody else earlier today and they used a word and I can't remember what it was but words are really important.
00:27:01.957 --> 00:27:07.807
They're not just like things that interchange with anything.
00:27:07.807 --> 00:27:31.090
I mean, and I believe people kind of say what they mean but I think the language that we use in the black community around race and color needs to change, because when we start changing our language, then we communicate with our young people the ways that we want them to think and grow up.
00:27:32.115 --> 00:27:37.122
I think, yeah, it can be changed and healed and addressed, but I don't think white people can do it.
00:27:37.122 --> 00:27:38.862
I don't think white people are even interested in doing it.
00:27:38.862 --> 00:27:44.384
I don't even think they have a deep understanding of how it affects us in the black community.
00:27:44.384 --> 00:27:46.381
So it has to start with us.
00:27:46.381 --> 00:27:51.727
We have to stop saying the things that we say around race.
00:27:51.727 --> 00:28:02.446
Somebody the other day called me a red bone and I was like, can we just like call me my name or something.
00:28:02.446 --> 00:28:07.121
But, um, so the language is important.
00:28:07.121 --> 00:28:14.000
The language, the way that we talk to our children, um, the things that we teach them.
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:16.512
And I do see a lot more of that these days.
00:28:16.512 --> 00:28:28.281
To be honest, I see a lot of beautiful, amazing, dark-skinned Black women racing the pages of, you know major magazines and being in you know high fashion shows, you know.
00:28:29.284 --> 00:28:45.185
So things are changing and, yes, I think it can heal, but I don't think we can look to, I don't think we can look to any community outside of ourselves honestly to address the things that we experience, because only we experience it and I think, like Native Americans or indigenous peoples.
00:28:45.185 --> 00:28:57.907
Their experience to me is the closest to black folks experience their journey, but and even in that, it's still very different.
00:28:57.907 --> 00:29:00.603
So, yes, I think I have hope for that, that it can be addressed and healed.
00:29:00.603 --> 00:29:08.182
I think, though, I don't have a plan for that, but I think it has to start with us, like everything else has to start with us.
00:29:08.182 --> 00:29:18.780
We cannot depend on outside entities and, yes, they can be allies and they can be supportive, but we must change.
00:29:18.780 --> 00:29:33.940
We must change, and that's the problem, because it's been hundreds of years we've been in this mindset, right, I feel like I just want to travel all over the country and talk to people individually, and just, you know, come on, let's do this, but I do have hope it can change.
00:29:34.460 --> 00:29:48.884
Excellent and let's kind of take a back step to maybe food stamps and maybe the way those might affect the community as a whole.
00:29:48.884 --> 00:30:17.694
I mean, if you've heard of food deserts before where in certain locations food sources might be lower, there might be issues regarding food, like I think, for example I think I was reading some type of research how Safeway, for example, in maybe a location where I'm in, it might be a lot more higher level but in the more majority black area the Safeway is much more lower quality and higher price, yeah, yeah exactly.
00:30:18.635 --> 00:30:22.445
You know that, lower quality of goods, those types of things.
00:30:22.445 --> 00:30:23.861
What's your opinion on all of that?
00:30:24.455 --> 00:30:35.162
There's actually a neighborhood here in the city of Pittsburgh that has experienced that and had like a grocery store come in and then they were only there a very short period of time and left.
00:30:35.162 --> 00:30:55.000
I don't know, I don't know, I don't know if people think that people who are kind of going through living in low socioeconomic status don't deserve certain things or don't need certain things or don't value certain things.
00:30:55.000 --> 00:31:09.983
And I think that also could be connected to enslavement and those times because Black folks got what to eat when they were enslaved the leftovers, the scraps, the stuff their masters and overseers didn't want, right?
00:31:09.983 --> 00:31:15.023
So that's how they made different dishes, like chitlins.
00:31:15.023 --> 00:31:23.682
I don't know if you've ever eaten chitlins or if you ever smelled them cooking, but they stink to high heaven to me.
00:31:23.682 --> 00:31:28.390
But that's the intestines of the pig.
00:31:28.390 --> 00:31:38.257
But if all you have is that what is left over after everybody else gets what they get, then that's what you're used to, right.
00:31:38.257 --> 00:32:00.134
And I think oftentimes corporations and businesses like who own grocery stores and things like that, think that they'll, you know, have a high level of loss because of stealing.
00:32:00.134 --> 00:32:23.671
I think that their insurance might be high in some areas where there's high crime and oftentimes inner city areas, have those numbers that corporations and insurance companies look at, but also not realizing that those things are also a manifestation of trauma and of not getting what we were promised and not getting what we deserve in this country.
00:32:23.671 --> 00:32:43.365
So I think it takes a very special company to kind of go into a space like that and create a world where there are fresh produce items, where know fresh vegetables at reasonable prices, where they're not stocked all the time with all the sugar-filled things.
00:32:43.365 --> 00:32:49.304
And yeah, I think it's a hard decision for a company.
00:32:49.304 --> 00:33:13.318
But I also think that if companies go into these communities and talk with them and get their input as to what they would like in a space, that they could get people on board and that they would be invested and they would have some type of connection right as a stakeholder in that plate, in that grocery store, being in their community and be proud of it.
00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:18.877
You know, and not to mention just basic convenience, because oftentimes if you don't have a lot of money then you might not have transportation.
00:33:18.877 --> 00:33:20.836
You know, and not to mention just basic convenience, because oftentimes if you don't have a lot of money then you might not have transportation.
00:33:20.836 --> 00:33:21.978
You know how do you get your food.
00:33:21.978 --> 00:33:23.843
And then we get into all these.
00:33:23.843 --> 00:33:26.357
You know, grocery delivery, I know groceries get delivered.
00:33:26.357 --> 00:33:27.541
I went grocery shopping this morning.
00:33:27.541 --> 00:33:32.265
I don't want anybody to deliver, I'm going to touch what I buy and I want to see what it is.
00:33:32.265 --> 00:33:38.041
But so sometimes people get into and then that affects the financial thing which you were talking about earlier.
00:33:38.041 --> 00:33:45.955
Right, because there's not enough money to kind of do all these things, um, but you gotta eat, um.
00:33:46.435 --> 00:33:57.316
So I think that's just part of that, is just a part of the, the big kind of system that keeps people.
00:33:57.316 --> 00:34:05.273
And it's not even just race, you know, it's people who are living in poverty, you know, regardless of race, who cannot seem to get ahead.
00:34:05.273 --> 00:34:08.483
Because it reminds me of sharecropping, right.
00:34:08.483 --> 00:34:17.746
Whenever Black folks were, you know, freed by the Emancipation Proclamation, they had nowhere to go, they had nothing to do.
00:34:17.746 --> 00:34:19.836
They had I mean, they had no land.
