Transcript
WEBVTT
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All right.
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Testing testing one, two, three.
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Hello everyone, welcome back to the show.
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This is James Harris, and today we have a very special guest, jordan Miller.
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How are you doing, man?
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I'm doing well.
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How are you?
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Okay, great to hear from you.
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So can you kind of start this off by giving me, you know, a bit of a gist of you know who?
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You are what you're about.
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You know what you're.
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Yeah, absolutely so.
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I'm the lead developer of a crypto startup called Moontree and I'm the founder of a distributed AI and control of AI through future prediction.
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What the Satori network does is predict the future, so that's kind of the two things I'm involved with.
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Okay, and when did you first discover this method?
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Like first discover kind of the Satori kind of relationship, AI and crypto relationship there.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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So I've always been interested in how the brain makes intelligence, and one of the major operating principles of the brain is that it always predicts the future of everything that it's going to receive, all the data it's going to receive through the skin, the eyes, the ears, all of our senses, it's actually subconsciously predicting the future of what it thinks will come in, and this is so that it can give the rest of our brain, the rest of our intelligence, the ability to anticipate it and be ready for it when it comes.
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So time is a very important thing to the brain.
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It's always predicting this global time.
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But in a lot of AI systems out there, like LLMs, you know all the latest stuff.
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They're mostly focused on, not time, spatial patterns, you know spatial patterns within the language domain, spatial patterns within the language domain, spatial patterns within the images domain, stuff like that, so that they can translate one domain to another.
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So, noticing that nobody's focusing on time and prediction, and also noticing that all things are correlated in time, so it's already just perfect for institute or implementing on an actual network.
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That's when I realized we could implement this on a cryptocurrency, on a crypto network, on a cryptocurrency, on a crypto network, and basically allow anybody to turn their computer into a future predicting AI oracle.
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So that's kind of.
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When I noticed it, it was probably about 2012,.
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2011 is when I was having these thoughts and actually at that time is when I first started learning about blockchain technology.
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So it was at that time that I was thinking, okay, let's make a network of AI bots that are all predicting the future.
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They can help each other with those predictions.
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And as soon as I had these thoughts, I thought, well, I don't know how to make this network.
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And then I discovered blockchain and realized blockchain is a way that you can make an open, distributed network.
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Anybody can join, anybody can participate.
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We're all doing proof of work, so we know that we can trust one another, that we can trust one another.
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So I actually tried to implement this idea very naively back in 2013-ish, and I tried to implement it at the lowest layer of the distributed consensus stack, which is making a new consensus algorithm proof of prediction.
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And I wasn't able to get that proof of prediction algorithm to scale.
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So I kind of put it on the back burner and about two years ago I came back to it and said now I know how to implement this correctly, and that's what Satori has become what Satori has become, so why?
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crypto.
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Well, there's two reasons really.
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So, first of all, you can make an open, distributed network that anybody can join.
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And the second reason is you need to have some kind of unit of control that the people can have in a distributed manner in order to distribute the control of the AI.
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So you need a unit of control, and that just is the token that's minted by doing the work you know by making predictions.
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By doing the work you know by making predictions, so as a computer is running the Satori software, it mints a token.
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That token is actually a utility token that says I now have voting rights on what the network at large should look at, pay attention to, predict the future of.
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I can direct the attention of the network, um, and then that's how you keep it distributed.
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Because if you don't have that, then you know there's some small organization, some group of people that are deciding this is what the satori network should predict, and you don't really want that.
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You want that managed by the community.
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So that's why you need kind of a crypto solution.
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So for novices and people who might not be too familiar with this lingo, what?
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is the blockchain.
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The blockchain is a technology that allows us to come to consensus without having any centralized authority.
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So, um, normally, I mean money is the easiest thing to implement on a blockchain, because you only have to keep track of one number, and and that's why Bitcoin and then all of its competitors came about first but you can use it for any kind of consensus, really so.
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But to give an example of money, if you say, well, we're all going to transact with one another, so we create this centralized authority and that's the bank.
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We say, okay, bank, you keep a ledger of, you know everything we send to one another, and then we'll trust you.
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You know, we'll trust you and the bank could lie, so the bank could say you didn't send money, that you actually did, or whatever else.
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And so you have to have this trusted authority Well, decentralized, distributed consensus that allows you to all know the ledger without having a trusted authority that manages the ledger.
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The actual technology of blockchain that you're all running this protocol that will manage the ledger for you guys, running this protocol that will manage the ledger for you guys.
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So that's kind of, um, the high level reason, or what blockchain does, why it should exist like what it is, what types of results can a consumer of this product, a consumer of this product, did he expect, and what would that consumer look like?
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Ah, the consumer of the Satori product.
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Satori, since it's an open, distributed network and everything, it creates predictions and it broadcasts them for free.
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So at this stage anyway, the Satori is producing free predictions.
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This is called our public good.
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So a consumer of this would be anybody who wants to know the public good predictions, which would be things that are applicable to everybody, such as large-scale government statistics, metrics on the environment, metrics on the economy, kind of the prices of the S&P 500 or something large-scale stuff.
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So anybody who wants to know or get kind of a glimpse of the future of those things would probably be a consumer of the Satori output.
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As we scale, though, once we get to a point where it's predicting those large-scale things relatively well, it can get more niche and more specific.
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So at some point we'll be able to build a marketplace of prediction on top of this layer.
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That will say if you want the Satori network to de-silo your data and kind of bring it in line with everything else and see what it can learn and predict your particular data stream Maybe it's your quarterly sales next month or something Well, it can bring it in, associate it with all the information that it's already predicting and then it can provide that back to you for a fee.
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So that would be not a public good, that would be a private good.
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So I do see that happening eventually as it grows and evolves, but we're not building that right now.
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So I would say those are the two types of consumers of the whole project.
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Just to say something interesting here.
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This is not to take a launch of you, but there's an old saying that if a product is free, then you are the problem.
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When you're dealing with these types of consumers and they're using your service for free, is there any type of data they have to give away?
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What's sort of the trade-off of the free service?
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There is a trade-off.
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So the trade-off is this the thing is printing a token, right?
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So we have crypto out there in the world and we have a bunch of projects and they all print their own token and basically they're trying to print money, right?
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So, um, what gives them the right to print that money and to have purchasing power?
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I think if you're going to do that, you should be providing something for free.
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So this is what satori provides is future prediction.
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Do you think Satori may have competitors, because there's a lot of AI services out there.
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You have Flod, you have Gemini, you have ChatGPT.
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Do you think any of these, especially ChatGPT, a potential plugin that might be able to act as a competitor to this?
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Oh, sure, sure.
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So they already have made LLMs that they're trying to get to be able to predict the future or talk about the future.
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Right now it's really bad at it, and the ones they've created I don't know if they're any better.
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It's kind of like guessing.
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It's kind of like saying, well, you know, I'm going to use the patterns I find in language itself to kind of maybe extrapolate a good answer for that question into the future, but it, oh sorry, it really has a hard time with that particular domain, the future and so they are trying to build these large language models that specialize in that.
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However, I don't see how they're going to continue to make it viable really well without kind of an underlying ecosystem of future prediction.
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So I do see kind of that technology having a place, but I see it as kind of an interface into a larger, kind of like an iceberg.
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You know, the bottom of the iceberg is what Satori is.
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It's this huge, massive network predicting the future of anything that people care about, and on the very top of, you know, above the water, maybe there's a little LLM could be a big one, but it's aggregating all those predictions into a cohesive model that it can then talk to you about.
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You can then have a conversation about it.
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So that's kind of what I see is the right way to do it.
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Now I do see that Satori would have kind of indirect competitors, but it already does, because everybody's trying to predict the future of something.
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We all predict the future.
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Businesses, ceos have to foresee the next five years.
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We're always trying to predict the future of our particular domain, and what we don't do is kind of bring all those predictions under one roof and kind of see the whole picture.
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And that's what Satori is.
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It kind of brings it all together.
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So we do have weathermen, you know, today that are predicting the future for everybody, but only in one specific domain, you know, and so I don't see that being very profitable to a private industry.
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I do see it being the appropriate domain of a distributed system.
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So we don't have any direct competitors at all.
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But we do have kind of these kind of you know I could imagine Fitbit coming out and saying we gather everybody's data, we throw it through models and we're creating predictions of everybody's data.
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So if you want to know what your heart rate is going to be over the next 30 days, you know, we're going to give that to you, and so I see these kind of specialized domains that are kind of economically incentivized because they're so specialized and they're you know, this kind of data or whatever.
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I see that as as growing in the future.
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I think we're gonna have more and more of that as AI gets better.
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But I don't't see any project or any company saying why don't we make a world model?
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Because that's kind of a utility, it's kind of like a public domain kind of thing.
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I don't think they know how to make any money off it.
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So I do see those particular solutions, though they might want to plug into the world model to Satori, because you know if, if all of a sudden, your water supply is tainted or something that's going to affect your health and that's kind of what your biometric data is reflecting your health.
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So they're probably going to want to be able to connect out to any kind of data All things are correlated in time but they're not going to want to have to manage the overhead of that.
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So I think they will plug into something like Satori or satori um for that solution.
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So I don't see any direct competitors for satori at this, you know, on the horizon so does this software specialize specifically in cryptocurrency, or do you think this will eventually carry over to other things like maybe predicting viral videos or predicting the stock market, or even something like sports betting or gambling?
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but for gambling.
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Yeah, I think a lot of people will want to use it for the beginning and for a long time, for direct economic incentive gambling of various kinds or whatever.
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So I do see that being a large part of what Satori is predicting, because that's what people will point it towards.
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We're going to try to get it to predict large-scale things like government statistics.
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We're going to have a domain for that, but I do see people wanting to use it for that.
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So what we're going to do we don't have this.
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We're in beta right now, so we don't have this feature built in but what we're going to do is make it so that you can use the Satori software as a specific tool.
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If you want to just use it as a tool, you can do that.
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So right now you download it, it just goes out and starts grabbing data streams that the network has sanctioned and saying okay, I'm just going to predict these random data streams.
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Well, if you want to use it as a tool, you're going to be able to say no, I'm going to point you to a specific data stream.
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You're not going to broadcast the result out to everybody, you're just going to show it in the software locally and so that way you could point it to some sports betting or whatever you want to predict for yourself.
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You could also route your own data to it, like your own spending habits or your own biometric data, so that it's private.
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You get private predictions so that it's private.
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You get private predictions and it's only running on your machine.
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It's not running in some server.
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So we're going to build that in so that it's a tool that people can use.
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But yeah, yeah, I don't know what people are going to want to use it for but I'm sure a lot of it will be predicting markets of some kind.
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Now, another thing I'm thinking about is what about nut jobs?
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Hypothetically?
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What if you have someone that's using this software to maybe predict something and they might have some type of addiction or they might be in some type of bad financial situation and the prediction software?
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It might be accurate, but it might not be totally accurate and they end up losing a lot of money, not really making as much money as they wanted, and then they tried to sue you.
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Do you have some type of you know user license agreements or some type of legal protection for that?
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yes, so while we're in beta, I mean we make no guarantees, you know, I mean the model's just doing the best it can do, but the world is crazy and chaotic and so there's absolutely no guarantees that this software provides.
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So, yeah, while we're in beta, we're getting all those legal ducks in a row.
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So we're going to launch July 1st and we'll have all that taken care of.
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So what should we expect on the July launch?
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July launch everything.
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So if you download it right now, it just starts running.
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It's automatic.
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Everything's going to look pretty much the exact same, but the difference will be that it will be issuing the main net token.
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It will be issuing the token that gives you voting rights, voting power over the network, that utility token.
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So basically, launch means we've been building this under beta.
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It's been issuing a token because we had to be able to test that functionality.
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But that token is just some test net token that doesn't matter, it doesn't have any abilities, it's useless, right?
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But once we switch it over, it'll be the main net token that is actually useful, has a purpose.
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So that's basically it.
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That's what launch means that it's officially on mainnet and it's running in the end, global network.
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So the token is essentially how many commands you could put in.
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The token is an abstraction of utility, so hmm.
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So when you say how many commands, do you mean, like, how many data streams?
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I was thinking in a much more practical sense, like credits, like how some of these free softwares.
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They'll say you have 30 credits, these are the amount of credits you could use per day.
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Is that what the token is?
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What is the token?
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You can think of it as credits, but it's a credit that there's really no spending the credits.
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So if you download the software and you want to do some special thing at this point maybe we will in the future there's nothing you can spend the token on.
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What you can do, though, is you can say I have 100 tokens and I want to put them all on a particular vote, so you're staking it, you can't move it, it's going to stay there until you're ready to take it away, and then you're not voting on that anymore.
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So you could say well, I'm really interested in the environment or something, so I'm going to put all of my tokens on predicting sea temperature changes or something like that.
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So, and then, as long as that money is just sitting there on that button, it's not going to.
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You know you're not losing it, right, but it's stuck there Like it's doing its work of voting for this is what you think the network should pay attention to.
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And then, as soon as you're like well, I want to throw this stuff away or whatever, I want to get rid of it, then you can take it off of that button.
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Want to get rid of it?
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Then you can take it off of that button.
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No longer are you voting for sea temperature changes, and if nobody else is, then the network will not predict sea temperature changes.
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So that's kind of the point of the token is to say this is where the network should look, this is what it should look at, this is what it should pay attention to, this is what it should understand and this is what it should predict.
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Right now.
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That's the only place that the human is in the training loop with this system.
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You know, in LLMs, we create the language and we train it on our language and we curate the language, we throw out hate speech, we do whatever we want to the training data set and then, when it's not trained exactly the way we want it, we retrain it correctly.
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And so every step of the way on these kind of other AI systems, the human is in the Loop, the training Loop, and is implementing.
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It's our bias on every step, right.
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And so these other systems, like LLMs, they can't approximate truth, because what they're actually approximating is our bias, our interpretation of the truth, which is fine, you know.
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I mean, that's what language is.
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We got to do that.
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But if you have raw data coming into the system, like the future of some numeric metric that was measured.
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You have the raw data coming in.
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You're predicting the raw data automatically.
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There's no human in the loop.
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The training there's no human in the training loop there, but we do have to direct its attention.
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So we don't implement our bias except in the domain of saying, well you know, we don't care about how many termites there are on the earth, what we care about is, you know, the price of Google or something right, right.
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So we direct it according to what we find valuable.
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But then it gives us the truth of that domain.
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It tells us well, you know, according to just the math, this is what's going to happen tomorrow.
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So, um, I see satori as a better approximator of truth than any of these other AI systems out there.
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And how.
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This might be a bit of a deep question, but how does your company define value when it comes to what the actual software focuses on?
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it comes to what the actual software focuses on.
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Value is basically.
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Value is kind of like the dollar is an abstraction of value.
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So the dollar is only valuable because somebody else wants it.
00:26:24.743 --> 00:26:37.523
And if somebody else wants it, then I can get them to move some product for me in order to get this dollar, so I can get other.
00:26:37.523 --> 00:26:40.669
It's an approximation of other humans' labor.
00:26:40.669 --> 00:26:43.539
So that's of what value is it's.
00:26:43.721 --> 00:27:01.073
I can move something in the universe by giving this dollar away, right, whether that's moving product literally from the back room to the shelf or selling or you know, whatever it's it's, I can move something.
00:27:01.073 --> 00:27:02.556
I can make a change in the world.
00:27:02.556 --> 00:27:19.403
It might be hey, I can, I can change the um like got like governments and senators and congressmen sell their, their influence, congressmen sell their influence and influencers sell their influence, right, they can change people's minds, they can implement a change in reality.
00:27:19.403 --> 00:27:21.842
So that's what value is.
00:27:21.842 --> 00:27:25.345
It's a change that we would like to see, or someone would like to see.
00:27:25.345 --> 00:27:38.394
Somebody who has money has money.
00:27:38.394 --> 00:27:54.596
So it seems to me like what we're creating here with building up this AI expertise is we're building the ability to understand the world and with that we're building like computerized labor right, or a particular form of computerized labor predicting the future.
00:27:54.596 --> 00:28:10.365
And so it seems like value is a share of labor, whether it be human labor, computerized labor, animal labor, you know, it doesn't matter, it's a share, it's a, it's a value as a share of labor.
00:28:10.365 --> 00:28:14.330
So that's how I kind of see value.
00:28:15.295 --> 00:28:23.076
Now, what people will want it to predict, you know, is dependent on how they think they can use it right.
00:28:23.076 --> 00:28:30.318
Maybe, maybe they're just hey, they just like the environment, they think it's good for humanity to kind of understand the environment.
00:28:30.318 --> 00:28:33.083
So let's predict the environment right.
00:28:33.083 --> 00:28:35.166
So there's that value.
00:28:35.166 --> 00:28:40.726
But there's also the value of saying well, I can get rich on sports betting, so why don't we predict sports betting?
00:28:40.726 --> 00:28:48.757
And so we're kind of letting all the flowers flourish, like whatever people find valuable is what the system will predict.
00:28:48.757 --> 00:28:53.576
Now, there's only so much bandwidth, there's only so much bandwidth, there's only so much compute power.
00:28:53.576 --> 00:29:00.327
So those what do they call those competing interests have to compete.
00:29:00.327 --> 00:29:12.990
So yeah, so I think they will, and whatever people want the most will rise to the top and get predicted.
00:29:12.990 --> 00:29:20.262
Did that kind of answer your question about what value is or what we think it is?
00:29:21.234 --> 00:29:24.898
Correct it does and what I understand.
00:29:24.898 --> 00:29:31.682
The value system is gonna be based entirely off, really, what the consumer and the market plans.
00:29:33.165 --> 00:29:36.957
Yeah, yeah.
00:29:37.826 --> 00:29:39.853
It makes sense, it is a business.
00:29:40.535 --> 00:29:44.334
Right, and so there's going to be a Satori Association.
00:29:44.334 --> 00:29:45.376
In fact there already is.
00:29:45.376 --> 00:29:58.752
We're incorporating, but the Satori Association is mining, is running nodes, is doing things, and so it will have some token.
00:29:58.752 --> 00:30:06.056
It won't have most of the token, but it will have some, and its mandate is to build that world model.
00:30:06.056 --> 00:30:21.400
So all of the data streams that it predicts or wants to predict, all of the data streams it votes for, are going to be whatever is not voted for by the community, that will help inform a world model.
00:30:21.400 --> 00:30:43.318
So I don't think the community cares too much about demographic shifts, so I'm sure the Satori Association will have to put its voting power towards those kinds of things those kinds of things.
00:30:43.338 --> 00:30:51.505
This is all quite interesting, and what I'm thinking of now is this is a lot for a free piece of software.
00:30:51.505 --> 00:30:54.954
So what do you think the cost is going to be?
00:30:54.954 --> 00:30:56.932
Because I'm familiar with ChatGPT.
00:30:56.932 --> 00:31:09.771
They have a premium service, and then sometimes what I'll do is I'll pay for the full workspace service just because it has more power, more storage, even though I'm the only person using it.
00:31:09.771 --> 00:31:13.484
But there's a lot it could offer and it's worth the payment.
00:31:13.484 --> 00:31:24.096
This seems like something that's worth a monthly subscription, and I'm saying this, too, not to just help your company, but I feel like as a consumer.
00:31:24.096 --> 00:31:35.574
If I'm paying money for a service, I feel like I'm paying for additional privacy, security, right, more control on my part too, if that makes sense absolutely so.
00:31:37.135 --> 00:31:41.820
Uh, we have not considered that kind of stuff yet.
00:31:41.820 --> 00:31:52.490
So there is there's a lot of um, ancillary services or you know stuff like that that we could implement and and actually charge for.
00:31:52.490 --> 00:32:11.931
But because we are able to mint the token itself and because the Satori Association's mandate is to help that ecosystem flourish rather than make a profit it's a nonprofit organization we haven't explored those realms.
00:32:11.931 --> 00:32:21.499
So I think these add-ons will eventually get to, which will be good, because then we'll just be able to build it even bigger.
00:32:21.499 --> 00:32:41.099
But at this time, really, it's a distributed system, so we don't have to pay for too many servers, we don't have a lot of overhead, we don't have to buy huge AI computers because we're distributing this onto anybody who wants to run it.
00:32:41.099 --> 00:32:52.530
So being able to kind of distribute that load means we can do things very leanly and we don't really need too much.
